[Butch007]

Yeah it's long. I'm sorry but there just wasn't any way around that on this topic for me...

I know a lot of artists don't like to to get into discussions about politics/social issues even though many artists draw on these subjects in their art, but I do hope that there can be a thorough discussion about this subject.

Are a lot of artists contributing the repression/oppression of ethnic diversity? I tend to think so even though it's public forums and commercial promotion that projects the work to hundred, thousands, millions of brains.

I have some questions to consider on this matter:

Why is it ALWAYS ok to bastardize cultural motifs (costumes, accessories, weapons, languages) from non-white cultures to essentially appropriate them for "White" or "White" looking characters? Why is it fine to see 200 or more "White" looking characters in full or partial Lakota native American ceremonial dress (albeit inaccurate) before even 1 artist attempts to create an actual Native American in full or partial Lakota ceremonial attire?

How much better/deeper would Avatar have been if Jake Sulley had been played by an actual non-tribal era Native American like say Adam Beach? It's crystal clear, to those that know, that quite a bit of the cultural influence on the Na'vi was Lakota Native American.

There are literally thousands of examples on this site alone of tribal and non-tribal costume influences from all non-White people's essentially Hacked and thrown on "White" looking characters without 1 or 2 actual "Non-White" characters as a main subject. Why is that just okay and not subject to scrutiny?

I guess the last straw for me was studying Anime/Manga over the years and back to it's inception seeing the transformation of the Asian mindset as well the fan mindset relative to the look of the characters. In the beginning the compromise was made to make the characters look like stylized "White People" to appeal to the west and to "Portray more Emotion" (personally I think it's subjective and that bs reason was just thrown in to help Asian artists rationalize away the fact that they were voluntarily "White Washing" there culture through entertainment.) Anyway the mindset has changed from one where it was accepted that compromises were made to a kind of brainwashed mentality that's accepting of the "White Facial features" actually being Asian. In my estimation it's like this now purely because the medium is popular and everyone wants to be associated with a winner. (at whatever costs apparently for some people) If Anime/Manga wasn't popular Asian people would disparage it as ruthlessly as they do Ang Lee.

[Horus397]

I found an interesting article on Avatar and race here:

Avatar Compared to Dances with Wolves

[ViniciusCapiotti]

I think there's a wider problem which causes all this, and it's simple lack of competence from a lot of designers.

It comes from a simple notion of design as recycling of cultural references (which usually comes from entertainment itself) and the fact that a lot of designers fail to understand the true essence of cultural manifestations, seeing just the "by-produts".

It's not a result of racist thinking, it's the position of the concept artist as someone who can put some cultural-related visual elements on the image while making it look good. It generates superficial thinking.

I mean, are "uncovered big tits" or even "sexy woman" always well-thought design choices?

[Horus397]

Ok, so after thinking about this more I'm not sure that subversive racism isn't involved here. I mean even though I agree that designers think in terms of recycling at a pretty superficial level why is the one constant in the middle of this recycling almost always a "White" looking character if "White" is viewed as a significant part of what's cool? If race isn't a component why does virtually every non-White character generally get the stereotypical design treatment relative to their group. Black characters generally have some era of "Ghetto" flavor, Asians virtually always have some type martial arts flavor, but designers seem very okay with assigning any and all of these stereotypical characteristics (if they look cool enough.)

Why are there no Indian Male "Sci-Fi" heroes like a Commander Shephard from Mass Effect if there's not really any racism involved?

Here's an Interesting video I just found that deals with videogames, but I'm starting to think it's broadly applicable:

Racism as Design

[Longy]

Well, probably because there quite difference between design and art and because mostly wester culture and "whitewashed" asian pay your bills (not sure about second argument though )

[nijikon]

Cultural appropriation is certainly a tricky issue. On the one hand, everyone can be argued to be appropriating something. But when it's so crass and thoughtless like adopting tribal aesthetics while not engaging with the cultural meaning of those aesthetics, that makes me a bit uncomfortable in the same way that blatant stereotyping does.
I think a lot of people fail to grasp the subtlety and shades of grey in these situations - yes, it's good that people can be culturally mobile and are not pigeonholed into certain cultural groups based on their race - asians can get corn-rows, white people can learn karate and a native american can wear a kilt and play the bagpipes if they want. etc etc. But that doesn't mean that because culture is now increasingly fluid and detatched from race that those cultural signifiers lose their meaning, that the tradition and context behind those things ceases to matter because you can take them out of context.

What bothers me the most, apart from the lack of racial diversity and tokenism in popular movies/games/fiction in general is the implied belief that audiences won't watch something if the top-billed lead role isn't a conventionally attractive white heterosexual male. I wish they'd give consumers a bit more credit and stop thinking that mainstream consumers are all subvertly racist who balk at diversity.

((This reminds me of an incident on DA: A while ago on Deviantart a daily deviation was chosen by a mod - a photo of a topless white woman in a native american man's war bonnet. Sadly, a significant amount of DA users couldnt understand why the potential offense that image caused and there was a lot of butthurt white-privilaged angry noise in the comments. I can't find the link right now but it was a pretty depressing read.))

Originally Posted by Butch007

I guess the last straw for me was studying Anime/Manga over the years and back to it's inception seeing the transformation of the Asian mindset as well the fan mindset relative to the look of the characters. In the beginning the compromise was made to make the characters look like stylized "White People" to appeal to the west and to "Portray more Emotion" (personally I think it's subjective and that bs reason was just thrown in to help Asian artists rationalize away the fact that they were voluntarily "White Washing" there culture through entertainment.) Anyway the mindset has changed from one where it was accepted that compromises were made to a kind of brainwashed mentality that's accepting of the "White Facial features" actually being Asian. In my estimation it's like this now purely because the medium is popular and everyone wants to be associated with a winner. (at whatever costs apparently for some people) If Anime/Manga wasn't popular Asian people would disparage it as ruthlessly as they do Ang Lee.

I'm not convinced their has been a westernising of the appearance of manga characters, especially in a conscious effort to make manga which appeals to western markets. Any specific examples?

[nijikon]

Originally Posted by Horus397

Ok, so after thinking about this more I'm not sure that subversive racism isn't involved here. I mean even though I agree that designers think in terms of recycling at a pretty superficial level why is the one constant in the middle of this recycling almost always a "White" looking character if "White" is viewed as a significant part of what's cool? If race isn't a component why does virtually every non-White character generally get the stereotypical design treatment relative to their group. Black characters generally have some era of "Ghetto" flavor, Asians virtually always have some type martial arts flavor, but designers seem very okay with assigning any and all of these stereotypical characteristics (if they look cool enough.)

I think while white characters are in the majority and other ethnicities are only there in token amounts, those token characters have to represent their whole race.
Like, if there are several white leads they can all have different interests, styles and personalities etc and no one expects one individual character to represent 'whiteness'. Especially when their race is the dominant cultural majority.
However, when a character is the only one of their race in a cast and a minority in the wider culture to boot, there seems to be a tendancy to sterotype, even characature them. And a tacit sense they carry the weight of representing their whole race. Their race becomes an integral part of their characterisation, in a way it is not for a majority character.


On the one hand, the exoticness of other cultures makes them cool and interesting to character designers.
On the other hand, this perpetuating of their otherness, their exoticness forces them to remain segregated outsiders and prevents them from integrating into the mainstream.

[kovah]

I think games characters as a whole would be pretty restricted if these kind of boundaries were not broken. If ONLY people originating from North America could wear native Indian dress, which would men that only white English/European types could wear full medieval armour and only Asian men could be samurai.

Yes in a way that would mean there might be more diversity in colour and race of characters but I think they would be even more stereotyped and pigeon-holed because now these characters would be restricted to boundaries of that race and history that a white European in native American dress or a native American in full knight armour would not be. These broken stereotypes conflict in our heads and subconsciously make us wonder why that person is different, how did they get there? What is their story?

I understand that there is a prevalence of white characters in the majority of games but depending where the game is made makes a difference and also who the target audience is. The fact is that right now games with white male leads sell, because they are still aimed at middle class white boys. I'm still waiting for a game with a strong female lead without boobs big enough to hit her in the face when she runs but the games companies it seems are still not convinced that would sell so they are not producing it.

[Somni]

Originally Posted by Horus397

Ok, so after thinking about this more I'm not sure that subversive racism isn't involved here. I mean even though I agree that designers think in terms of recycling at a pretty superficial level why is the one constant in the middle of this recycling almost always a "White" looking character if "White" is viewed as a significant part of what's cool? If race isn't a component why does virtually every non-White character generally get the stereotypical design treatment relative to their group. Black characters generally have some era of "Ghetto" flavor, Asians virtually always have some type martial arts flavor, but designers seem very okay with assigning any and all of these stereotypical characteristics (if they look cool enough.)

Why are there no Indian Male "Sci-Fi" heroes like a Commander Shephard from Mass Effect if there's not really any racism involved?

Here's an Interesting video I just found that deals with videogames, but I'm starting to think it's broadly applicable:

Racism as Design

My illustration instructors have been discussing the fact that we tend to create symbols of everything. We create a symbol for how a leg looks like, or how eyes look like, or what a particular subject looks like. Likewise, we create a symbol for what non-White people look like or what their culture is like. The problem with using symbols and not actually researching or finding out what something really looks like, is that the symbol usually is inaccurate. That's why people who tend to draw without reference will have anatomy issues, or perspective issues-in the same manner, people who simplify and symbolize a ghetto culture through one black character have created all sorts of inaccuracies.

I do not like it as much as you do-I am Hispanic and it does bother me how in Mass Effect series(one of my fav games) many of the characters symbolize cultures that exist around us. But that's the role of artists, to change culture, to shape the visual library of masses. So it falls to us whether we keep repeating those symbols or we make new ones that are more accurate.

[Amaakir]

Another thing to have in mind, sadly, is what producers want.
We live in a world where everything is bussiness, the artists may be bold and creative, trying to change a stereotype and include it in a videogame from a monster developer. But if the producers consider that going from the stereotypical hero (young, attractive, white, etc.) will somehow affect the income, then they will reject it.
It's happened a lot in the history of movies, comics, etc. Producers, Directors will not take something that might get people uncomfortable because they want everyone to like it, whatever the artists may think. When artists decide to take the risk and create something that breaks these stereotypes, then something unique and great is born.
Take Hellboy for example, Mike Mignola went for a concept of a boy that came from hell, raised by American soldiers in the middle of a World War. He involved Nazis with the ocult and just went to the extreme, thus creating something that was refreshing and that came to be very popular.
I'm not sure how certain people might take the Nazi concept in a game or comic, but here in Mexico, even the thought of mentioning a cartel or a "Narco" as we call them and showing it to the public in a comic or an art, is literally suicide.
In Mike Mignolas work, there are a lot of references to Hellboy as the one that will destroy the world, and in several occasions Mignola goes as far as to literally point his father as the devil himself. How could a concept that is bound so heavily on Hell and religious ideas, have become such a great success? I think a lot of it had to do with mignola just saying what his mind wanted to, he had no producers or directors behind his back placing walls to his ideas.

[Horus397]

The popularity of Hellboy is an interesting topic for study on it's own in that while it seems like Mignola might have built something that is a counterculture icon in fact society has changed. (even back when it was released) That which is the most bizarre or strange or opposite of what would have been viewed as appropriate in generations past is the foundation of the mainstream now, so at a certain level HellBoy is cliche.

I remember years ago on a somewhat popular television program named "Felicity" there was an episode where a punk stereotype character had a non-punk boyfriend. She decided to dress punk because it was "Different" and ran counter to everything that was appropriate. It took her "normal" boyfriend spelling out for her that the world had changed, that punk had become cliche and that she was just as clique-ish as the people she made fun of. After a short period of time she accepted the fact that she'd become just as stereotypical and prudish as the people she supposedly abhorred. The following day and thereafter she elected to dress like...(wait for it)

A 1950's Stepford wife. (again another stereotypical misplaced social "costume" appropriated purely to attract attention.)